Understanding autism: An interview with Phoebe Jordan

Phoebe Jordan

Since early 2025, the topic of autism has gained a lot of media attention. Unfortunately, we have seen widespread misinformation and disinformation about the nature of autism and its possible causes.

During this interview with author Phoebe Jordan, I had the privilege of discussing her new book You, Me, and Autism: How to Support, Befriend, and Work with Autistic People. This book debunks a lot of misinformation about autism. And, as the title indicates, it is designed to build strong relationships between autistic people and allistic people (those who are not autistic).

The book offers readers a rare value. Because Phoebe is both autistic and a scholar, the book integrates her personal experiences as an autistic person with her academic research.  Phoebe is completing her PhD work at Victoria University in New Zealand, in collaboration with Stanford University. Her research has been published in major international academic journals. Not only is the book a tremendous help for autistic people, it is also a great resource for parents, employers, and teachers who have an autistic person in their lives.

Glenn: Thanks for writing the book, Phoebe. I know writing is hard work. Let’s start with an overview. You show that about one in every thirty-six people are autistic. Even though autism is so common, it seems like there's still widespread confusion about it. Lots of false stereotypes that emerge from that confusion. Based on your scholarly research, what do you think is a good way for us to think about the nature of autism and how we should define it.

Phoebe: In previous decades, autism was considered through a medicalized view, as if autism were a disease. However, in recent years, research has given us a more affirming view of autism. We know that autism is a neurodevelopmental condition. It's not a disease. It's not something that needs to be cured or “fixed.” It is the result of differences in the brain. One way to describe it is by saying that the autistic person has a different software operating system. Now, if you've got an iPhone or Samsung, you wouldn’t try to turn your iPhone into a Samsung. You would just learn how to use the iPhone.

Glenn: Your book emphasizes that each autistic person might have different limitations and also many strengths. What are some of those common limitations and strengths that autistic people might express?  

Phoebe: Autism is not like a one-size-fits-all experience. However, autistic people do have commonalities. I mean, otherwise, how would we diagnose autism? There are common challenges and common strengths. Many autistic people struggle with things like sensory overload, or not having enough sensory stimulation. Another frequent challenge is related to executive functioning. Many autistic people struggle to “kick our brains into gear.” Even when we want to do something, we might feel unable to get started. In my case, it sometimes feels like my brain is a bit of a war zone.

Glenn: How do these common experiences affect the relationships that autistic people have with people who are not autistic?

Phoebe: So, navigating the social labyrinth is a challenge for autistic people. It can be difficult for us to pick up on all the unspoken rules and to read between the lines when people are talking. However, we also have some remarkable abilities. Many autistic people are very good at pattern recognition and thinking in new and innovative ways. We are often very creative and focused. I mean, that came out for me when I was writing my book. I would just sit there in high focus, writing for ten hours straight and doing nothing else. I guess my point is that, beyond the challenges and limitations, autistic people often experience mismatches between us and the environment in which we live and work.

Glenn: I’d like to dive a little deeper into how autism might affect relationships. A central purpose of your book is to help autistic and allistic people build stronger relationships.

Phoebe: Loneliness is a big problem in the autism community. There's a prevalent stereotype that autistic people don't want relationships. That simply isn't true. We definitely want connection. We just express and receive friendship and love in different ways. That's all. Our relationships are affected by things like sensory overload and slower emotional processing speeds. We usually need more alone time to regulate. So, when people who are not autistic—friends, family, work colleagues, partners—do not understand autism or aren't willing to learn about the differences in our brains, then it makes authentic relationships difficult to build.

Glenn: In what ways do autistic people cope with this tension?

Phoebe: Because autistic people want friendships so much, we often “perform” as a way to meet social expectations. We try to be like a neurotypical person, which is exhausting. For example, I have to force myself to make eye contact every single moment that I'm speaking to another person. All my energies are focused on that, so that I can have a conversation, but it is not natural for me.

Glenn: It seems you are saying that it is hard to be yourself.

Phoebe: For many autistic people. I think identity development takes years, if not decades. We spend so much time just trying to fit in. Copying other people. In my case, I forgot who I was, or maybe I didn't even know who I really was. I studied TV shows and conversations like they were textbooks. I used my pattern recognition skills to figure out the most common questions and conversation topics, and the best possible answers. I wrote them out like scripts. I would practice facial expressions in the mirror. I was performing, essentially, and the world was my stage. Then, when I was finally diagnosed, it felt like someone had given me a map to my identity, and there was me in the middle, the real me. For autistic people, identity is deeply tied to self-acceptance. That is really hard to build when the world keeps telling you that you're not enough. By discovering and truly embracing your autistic identity, that is life changing.

Glenn: Did the diagnosis give you a better sense of your professional direction?

Phoebe: I now just want to do everything I can to help people. My PhD, my work, my books, everything. I started to work with autistic children and families because I want to help them. In my PhD, I want to make sure that autistic children and families have the best support possible. I don’t want anyone to feel lonely like I did when I was growing up. I don't want that for other people.

Glenn: You mentioned the importance of having a small group of friends or family members who know you well and support you with specific needs. I believe you call them a “board of trustees.” I think we all need a board of trustees! (Laughter)

Phoebe: Yeah, a board of trustees. My board of trustees includes friends and some family. I come to them with questions about social situations that I don't understand, and they help me decipher the way forward. Or we just bounce ideas off each other. I still make all my own decisions, but it's great having their counsel. And I agree, I think we all need one.

Learn more about Phoebe and her book at this link and follow her @p.jordanbooks.